S4 E08: A Dentist's Guide to Negotiation

Wright: [00:00:00] Whether you're wrangling vendors or aiming for that well deserved salary bump, we've got you covered. I'm Dr. ArNelle Wright.

Ioannidou: [00:00:07] And I'm Dr. Effie Ioannidou. Tune in as we dive into the art of negotiation and share valuable tips and strategies. I'm so excited.

Announcer: [00:00:18] From the American Dental Association, this is Dental Sound Bites, created for dentists by dentists. Ready? Let's dive right into real talk on dentistry's daily wins and sticky situations.

Wright: [00:00:34] Well, hello, hello, friends. If you have enjoyed Dental Sound Bites, please help us by rating the podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you are listening.

Ioannidou: [00:00:44] And please leave a review that helps us continue to support other dentists and our profession.

Wright: [00:00:49] So today we're going to be talking about the art of negotiating and who better to lead us into this conversation than our special guests, practicing dentist, bestselling author, speaker, and the creator of the Nifty Thrifty Dentist, Dr. Glenn Vo. Welcome to the show today.

Ioannidou: [00:01:07] Welcome. Welcome.

Vo: [00:01:09] Well, thank you so much for having me here. I'll tell you, I'll tell you ladies what I've been on a lot of podcasts, but I truly feel that I finally arrived when I'm on the ADA Dental Sound Bites podcast. I'm so stoked. So stoked.

Ioannidou: [00:01:21] You have been discovered.

Vo: [00:01:22] Yes.

Wright: [00:01:25] So we're all arriving together. So glad to have you here today.

Ioannidou: [00:01:28] It's really excellent that we have you. And I really like the topic. Tell us a little bit more about yourself, your work. 

Vo: [00:01:34] Well, thank you. I am a practicing dentist. Now I'm not as chairside as much as I used to be, but I'll start, like, my dental school background. I went to Baylor. At the time it was Baylor College of Dentistry.

When I graduated, it became Texas A & M College of Dentistry. Unfortunately for me, to my dismay, because I'm a University of Texas person. But I had a great education there. Went there, worked as an associate for a couple of years. My wife, who is a dentist as well, we opened a practice together, a startup.

And for those who are listening, and if you've done a startup, you gotta be lean and mean, right? For me, having, like, an immigrant background, I was, you know, basically born into being very resourceful. I had four other siblings. There's five of us and we have family. You know, sometimes money was tight and my parents had to be resourceful. We had to be resourceful.

When I was in school I had to work two jobs. I had to do what I had to do to get through school. So when I opened the practice Nifty Thrifty was not something that I just kind of used as a slogan. It was actually a way of life, you know, in the way I started practice.

Wright: [00:02:37] Yeah.

Vo: [00:02:37] So that kind of carried on to, you know. As I got further in my practice, one of my coaches, after we finished our program, I hired this coach to just kind of learn a better way to establish a better culture in my practice. And when it was all done, she looked at me and she says, Glenn, what's next? And I said, what do you mean, what's next? I'm going to grow my practice. I'm going to, you know, grow it. And hopefully one day retire. I drink pina coladas all day on the beach, right? Like that's everyone's dream, right?

And so she looked at me. She's like, well, I feel like you have something more to give. I feel like that you can impact beyond the four walls of your practice. And so to make a long story short, that's when I came up with the idea of the Nifty Thrifty Dentist Community, because every dentist, we need to find ways to save money to find good deals and discounts.

And what turned into, kind of like a group to find those deals, it turned into a community. And that's why like, communities like, like the ADA, are so important, right? It's dentists, we're on an island by ourselves a lot of times. You know, when I first started, we really were on an island. And now with social media and, and just the, you know, different platforms out there, dentists don't have to be as much on an island.

And so that's how Nifty Thrifty started. And so we have 57,000 members in our group. You know, the podcast is really popular. YouTube channel’s really popular as well. And so, again, it's just someone saw something in me saying like, Hey, I feel like you can do something more beyond the four walls of your practice. And. And here I am, and here I am talking to you, two fine folk, right? So everything's kind of coming full circle now.

Ioannidou: [00:04:12] But it seems like the community really needed something like this, right? That's not an accident, the 57,000 people following you and listening to your advice and, you know, the practical tips and all these things that you are promoting on your site, and I'm sure on the YouTube channel too, I mean, this means that people, young dentists need this.

Why? Because they don't get the training in dental school about this. They have no clue. They come clueless out of this, right?

Vo: [00:04:36] That is so true. That is so true. And, and, you know, I'll tell you what, when we all went to school, right, there definitely wasn't any training. The schools have come a long way. And kudos to all the deans of all the schools are really just realizing that and stepping up.

I'll tell you what, it's easy, it's so easy for dentists to kind of sit back and say, well, you know, I wish I learned this in school. I wish. And until they actually, and I have a lot of friends that are in academia, and until you actually step in those shoes, you don't know the struggles they deal with.

Okay. I mean, private practice is one thing. Training the next generation of dentists is another thing. And also waiting through a lot of, like, the bureaucracy, whatever the deal was. I do not, I do not envy them one bit. But the schools have done a good job. Now, is there room for growth? Of course. And that's why you have to be in communities, like, what I have, or even just the ADA and go into, just imagine all the new resources every year that ADA brings, you know, so we definitely see that. But of course, still more work to be done.

Ioannidou: [00:05:36] Of course. And I mean, the reality of the matter is that code that the commission of dental accreditation does require practice management courses. So the dental schools at least need to fulfill this minimum, right?

So they all do a little bit of practice management, but you are absolutely right. There is always room for improvement and there is so much unknown for the young dentist, so much.

Vo: [00:06:00] Yeah.

Wright: [00:06:00] You said two things that really resonated with me was building a community. And being resourceful. I feel like although we're talking on the topic of negotiating, I feel like negotiation skills, it is part of being resourceful, but it's something that we don't have.

So can you marry the two on, on being resourceful and using negotiation as a way of that.

Vo: [00:06:21] I think most people are listening and present company included. I think we all know how it feels to be broke, right?

Wright: [00:06:27] Yeah.

Vo: [00:06:27] I mean, we've been a broke dental student, broke college student. Some people broke longer than others, right?

And so when you're broke, you're really resourceful. And I always like in my presentations, I always like to use the concept of ramen noodles, right? Has anyone, have you guys had ramen noodles before?

Ioannidou: [00:06:42] Yeah.

Vo: [00:06:44] Right? Ramen noodles, cup of noodles, right? Yeah. And so I remember just being a poor student and you know, I had to eat a cup of noodles. Well, you can't eat the same thing all the time. So you become resourceful, right? I mean, believe it or not, ramen noodles, you can stir fry ramen noodles. You can eat them plain. You can make a soup. You can add different things into the soup. You can add sausage, meats, all these different things. You become really resourceful, right?

When you're opening a startup practice and you only have so much money that the bank has lent you, and you only have so much working capital. Well, then you become an expert really quick in, like, IT expert really quick in, like, putting, fixing things, a repair person, all those different things. And so a lot of times we have to dip back into our resourceful nature.

We've been there before. You know, we've been broke before. And for some reason, when you become a dentist, when people become dentists, they feel like, okay, now it's like that resource of this is out of my head. Right? Like, I don't know. I need to pay for everything. I need to hire everyone for everything when I actually can do it on your own.

And so when I'm talking about nifty thrifty, it has nothing to do with, like, being the cheapest person, right? It's just being nifty, being skillful, thrifty, being just mindful of resources, spending money on what really matters. And so that's how you kind of bring those things together.

And one of the biggest things that people struggle with, and I think this is something that Dr. Effie is going to really love is, you know, when it comes to staff compensation, right?

When you, when you really understand your numbers and look at, like, your overhead. And you're wondering where is the highest component of your overhead? It's your staff pay. Believe it or not It's not your composite that you bought last month. No, it's not the gauze. It's not the cotton balls, right? It's not all those things. Those things are easy to see. You can look at an invoice. You can look at that. But it's staff compensation. And there's a real easy way to make sure that you're not overpaying in staff compensation.

Wright: [00:08:36] Do you want to start by telling us, like, why negotiating is so important, whether it's your salary or your services, and then maybe that can lead into that staff compensation portion.

Vo: [00:08:47] So, you know, I generally, I don't like to use the word negotiation. I like to call it a conversation. Right.

Wright: [00:08:54] Yeah.

Vo: [00:08:54] So let's start before we get into the staff. Let's talk, let's talk about, like, your supplies. Whether you use any of the big three supply vendors, someone smaller, you have to understand this: is that you only know what you know, right? Now, back, back in the day, right back in the day, it was harder to check prices.

Nowadays, it's really easy, right? We go on there and we look at these websites. We go on there. Some people who are really resourceful, like my wife, she has like this app where it checks the price of all these types of clothing that she likes and she knows where the best price is, right?

Ioannidou: [00:09:27] Oh, I need this. Where is this app.

Wright: I know, I was gonna say it.

Vo: [00:09:31] It could be very dangerous because I'll tell you what, it seems like every day when I come home, there's always a box of something and I get excited. I was like, did someone send me something? Oh, my wife again. Oh, so, so she's gotten really good at that. But she shows me. She's like, look at all this money I saved. I was like, okay, I can't, I can't say, I can't get upset about that.

But what, what I'm talking about is, for in the dental space, right? Like, let's say, for example, your dental supplies. Everyone's got to buy his dental supplies. Now, how often, for those who are listening, how often do you check to make sure you have the best price? Or do you just kind of trust your supply rep and say that that's okay. What I do is actually, I actually get my team to put everything I order on a spreadsheet. So there's always different reps that come by and say, Hey, Dr. Vo, we can beat any of your prices. You know what I say? I say, okay, prove it. There's a spreadsheet, put all your prices in.

Ioannidou: Oh, cool.

Wright: [00:10:21] I love that.

Vo: [00:10:23] I do it every year. I do it every year. And I, and I, and I told my supply rep, like, look, I have to earn the right to be my patient's dentist. Every six months, every six months, I have to earn the right to be there, continue to be their dentist.

So I have to, you guys have to earn the right to have my business. And we can do that, and we can keep it, we can keep the emotions out of it, we can be open and transparent. Here's the spreadsheet, put your prices in there. And so I go through there. Because what happens is this, guys. You order from one company, and if you never check your prices, you never know.

And you never know if the prices keep going up, because they do, right? No matter, no matter what you think, your prices are actually continually going up, right? But if you don't hold someone accountable and say, Hey, look, I'm always going to have someone recheck this. I'm always giving other people the opportunity to get my business. Then you hold them accountable. And that, that makes sure that you have the best pricing.

So easy hack right there. Get, get a spreadsheet there. I like to use a Google sheet. I will share the spreadsheet I have. And you guys can fill it in there. But if you want to take it one step further, when someone comes and say, Hey doc, uh, I got the best prices, I can beat anything.

I was like, okay, great. Let me email you the spreadsheet, put all your prices in for me. And then I'll check it.

Wright: [00:11:40] I love that so much.

Ioannidou: [00:11:42] This is really good. And I was thinking about the word that you use, the transparency, right? I mean, I think this builds a very honest and straightforward relationship with the vendors, with the staff, with everybody. But, tell us, I know you don't like the word negotiation, but in this conversation, that many times, dentists engage in when they start their career, what do you think are the key strategies and how negotiations are different from practice owner or the associate perspective? Like we used to play roles with the students, then the students and the residents, as to how do you do this conversation, how do you initiate this conversation? But it will be interesting to hear your perspective.

Vo: [00:12:23] Yeah, I've, you know, what's funny is that everybody who is a practice owner has been on the other side before, and sometimes they forget, sometimes they forget how it was. And sometimes, you know, they feel like, you know, and again, it's a negotiation. Everyone wants to win and whatnot. And for the, I'm going to give both perspectives.

But I'm going to start with the associates. I want to start with the associate perspective. Okay? Now, most associates, they want to make sure that there's some form of security, right? I want to make X amount. I got student loans. I got all these things that I am concerned about. I am concerned about and rightfully so, right?

I mean, students coming out these days, new dentists. I mean, the debt is way more than when I went to school. And it is what it is. But I'll tell you what I tell people, they may look at the dept, but they're going into one of the best professions ever, and they'll be able to knock that down, right? It's totally worth every penny.

And so for the associates, what I would say is this, right? The main thing is that, you know, from my owner's perspective, they want to pay on collection or on production. They want to basically, look, whatever work you do, you get paid. Totally understandable. The issue is, is whether that if the owner has, or the practice has, enough work.

So if I am going to negotiate with the with an owner, what I'm going to say is this. I want to, I want to make as much money as possible, not only for myself, but for the practice. I want the practice to flourish. Okay? And so what I would say is, you know, in lieu of asking for a higher guarantee, I would ask for a higher percentage there. Now, why is that something that an owner would agree to?

Wright: Long game.

Vo: Well, I don't wanna pay someone just to sit there and do nothing. But if you work really hard, of course I would pay more. And so that's the thing that you have to understand from an owner's perspective. The owner is looking at, okay, I have X, Y, Z bills, right?

I have to take care of all these bills here and I wanna make sure I get enough ROI. But if the ROI is there, we're happy to pay for it. Just like a marketing company, right? If we paid the marketing company $5 and we get $15 in return, we would do that all day long.

So with most associates, everyone is so focused on, Well, you know what? I want to get the highest guarantee I can get. Well, the thing is, is that what I would say, is what you really do if you're in the right situation and you have enough patients, you actually want to get the highest percentage you can get. So that's what I would say from an associate perspective. 

From the owner's perspective it’s really the same thing. We don't want to pay someone just to sit around there. So it's the onus is on us to make sure they are busy. So what I would say is, you know, from the owner's perspective, I would say, okay, I would give you X amount of guarantee and actually would go opposite. I would actually pay a lower percentage. Okay.

Now this is the owner's side. Okay. This is the owner's side. Okay. Because if you feel, if you truly feel that your practice is busy enough to support someone, then you want to have the lower percentage. You want to have the guarantee of higher. Okay. 

Now, again, if, if they don't hit that percentage, then there's two things that are, that's wrong. Okay. Number one, your practice is not as busy as you thought it was, okay? Or number two, you probably don't have a good fit. Those are the two things there. Most of the time, it's that the practice is not as busy as they thought it was.

That is the one thing that before anyone even thinks about hiring an associate, you have to ask yourself, am I hiring an associate because I'm just tired of working? Or am I hiring an associate because I really have so much work here, I need the help. And I think that's the biggest thing. I think a lot of times people are like, I'm just tired of working and I want to take back.

But then what happens is, is that there's not necessarily enough work for them because they, the owner/doctor probably just needed one extra day off. And now they're bringing an associate on, now they're fighting for patience. So, you know, before you even bring on an associate, I think that's the first thing, that's the first thing the owner has to ask themselves. For the associate, the first thing they need to ask the owner is, is there enough work to support two full-time doctors?

You have to ask that question first. And then, to take it a step further, if you do like a, and I would say, do either a working interview or trial run, maybe a week or so. And I would actually, as the associate, I would offer that to the doctor. And I would simply say this. I just want to make sure that we vibe and everything's okay.

During that week, it should tell you if they're busy enough. You should be able to look at all the schedules and if you see that there's barely any patients on your side, that should tell you something. So I know, um, I gave you a lot more information that you asked for. 

Ioannidou: Yes, great. 

Wright: That's what we want. 

Vo: I think it's really important to properly set expectations. And really, that's how you negotiate staff pay. It's about properly setting expectations.

Wright: [00:17:21] So that was a lot, which is so, so good. And I'm pretty sure all of our listeners are excited about it. But then my next question was going to be preparing for those discussions. Dr. Effie, you can chime in on this because I remember you telling us you used to teach a class or maybe even like a workshop on negotiating those salaries.

So now that you've heard Dr. Vo's perspective, like what are some ways that you have instructed or that you would advise your past students or maybe even in the future to prepare for those discussions?

Ioannidou: [00:17:52] Yeah, no. So I have done this work in the dental school for dental students and residents, as I mentioned, but also have done it in national meetings for academicians.

You know, I was a trained facilitator from the American Association of University Women. So the workshop is entitled Work Smart. So the title is connected to the fact that you shouldn't negotiate your salary only at the very beginning of your career, but you should be reassessing your performance. Many people go up for promotion. Many people change institutions, they change practices, right? So those principles apply in different settings. But I think it's exactly what Glenn said. I agree, that from the associate perspective, because this was my perspective, right? I was advising the associates going in or the junior faculty or the residents looking for a job.

So the number one thing that we were doing is to make sure that each candidate knows their value. And they know what they can contribute. And when you negotiate salary, you don't negotiate, you know, with a dollar amount. I need this because I want to buy a car, right? I need this because I have student loans. That becomes irrelevant in a professional relationship.

I think what the message that I wanted to pass to the junior academicians or junior practitioners is, you need to know your value. You need to know what you might be able to contribute to whatever organization you're joining, but then also you have to set a realistic benchmark and to be able to do this, you need to know the market.

Right? You need to know. And as you said, Glenn, earlier, all the information now is in our hands, right? You can very easily know exactly the average salary of a practitioner in Michigan versus New York, right? You can do this. You can have some benchmarks. You can follow ADA resources. You can read literature. You can, you can know that.

When I was doing this, and I want your perspective on this, Glenn, my focus was more into motivating women practitioners to be able to stand there and come strong in these negotiations and understand what are, in addition to their actual salaries, what are the benefits that they may need to negotiate.

So tell me a little bit about this. When associates come into the discussion of salaries, do they touch upon the benefits? Do they have any understanding about retirement, about health insurance, about parental leave, about all these other components that we may overlook at the initial steps, but then they become suddenly relevant, right?

Wright: [00:20:35] Glenn, can I, can I also add one more layer to that? I'm going to give this back to you. Because, Effie, you mentioned a few things and I also saw your face light up, Glenn. So value, performance, and knowing the market. I'm on the newer dentist spectrum, so I'm going to have the perspective of the new dentist.

So if, in your answer, can you also speak to that as well? Like knowing your value, someone coming out being an early career dentist, knowing how they can perform because they haven't really measured up to numbers or looked at the business. So if you can incorporate that in your answer, that would be great too.

Vo: [00:21:12] You know, absolutely. And gosh, I love that. I mean, thank you so much. I would say this. I mean, when you're looking for an associate position, not every position is going to be matched up to every associate. I mean, I think we can all agree on that, right? There's different practices out there. There's different types of dentistry, the patient demographics and where it is. There's so many different things. Okay?

But the thing is, is that you have to, what I would say is, when you're looking at a position, the first thing, and it goes back to the value. The first thing you should look at is see what type of practice they are. What do they do. And what skill sets do you bring to the table.

I'll give a very easy example here. In fact, I'll use a female dentist as an example. Let's say we have a female dentist who loves to see pediatric patients. You know, they love, they have the temperament for it, all these things.

Ioannidou: [00:22:03] Stereotype.

Vo: [00:22:04] I'm just using that because you know, I'm just using that because my wife is really good with kids.

Ioannidou: [00:22:08] I'm just joking. I was joking. I was just joking.

Wright: [00:22:10] Listen, don't mess with Dr. Effie. Don't play.

Vo: [00:22:13] Well, so let's say for example, you're looking at different opportunities. Let's say there's a group practice and maybe there the doctors are older and they don't see as many patients. Maybe they refer a lot of them, and we can just change this.

Let's say, instead of pedo patients, say surgery. Let's say, like, there's a dentist, a female dentist, she's really good at surgery and there's a practice that refers a lot of surgery. Right? That is an ideal opportunity for an associate because right away you can say all that work that you're referring out, I can do that.

Ioannidou: [00:22:44] Yeah.

Vo: [00:22:44] I can keep it in-house. And here's the great thing is, the great thing is, is that the one thing you got to worry about is, is there enough work for you? Well, if you are doing most of the work that's referred out, you will be busy, right? So now you can negotiate from a, you know, stronger standpoint saying, well, you already refer this. If you keep it in-house, I'm actually going to help you make more money. I'm actually going to help you make more money. So, the thing is, is not only understanding your own value, but looking at the opportunity that's in front of you and seeing, okay, am I going to bring something there? 

Now let's say that you're a younger dentist and you are just, you cannot wait. You, you're willing to work four or five days a week. Okay. And let's say that the practice owner is starting to wind down. You actually can use your youth to your advantage. Hey doc, you know, maybe the practice has been steadily going down because the doctor is scaling back there. And there's nothing wrong with that, right?

That's kind of like the life's, the life trajectory of every dentist's profession, right? Like their career, right? It goes up and it starts to kind of come down a little bit as they kind of cut back. Well, when you add that aspect of youth and enthusiasm in a practice, it can energize things. And so you could bring that to the table as well as like, Doc, you normally don't work on fridays. I would love to bring that back because nowadays with the way the economy is it's hard to get days off. People need that Friday. Or maybe they need the early hours. I would love to do that, you know. So understanding what the practice needs, doing that homework, is going to help you as far as negotiation goes.

Ioannidou: [00:24:30] This is an excellent point. I really like this because it, first of all, the number one focus here is, you know, you go to your interviews, to these conversations well prepared, you have to be well prepared, you have to know the practice, you have to know the environment, you have to know the state, the town, the state, you have to be informed.

You know, the other thing that I, I tell the students is, In the current generation, I think it becomes more and more relevant, judging from my daughters that are college students, I mean. What I say is that create a spreadsheet with your expenses, project your expenses, like how much are your loans?

What kind of car are you prepared to buy?  Rent? Mortgage? make it a spreadsheet, and see what is your bottom line, right? Yeah. Because people throw out random salary numbers that are unrealistic.

Wright: [00:25:25] Yeah, because they've probably heard it from somebody in conversation and stuff.

Ioannidou: [00:25:28] Right?

Wright: [00:25:28] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ioannidou: [00:25:30] So,  you know, I just find that the touch and connection with reality is kind of very important.

And on this, tell us a little bit about your website. I went and I was really, I found it very interesting. It's dedicated to saving money, right? Smart tips and strategies and resources, how to be resourceful, how to approach those struggles, especially at the initial stages of the dental practice. So when working with these vendors and you brought up the spreadsheet, how can you secure the best deals?

Is the strategy transparency, or do you think there are other ways too?

Vo: [00:26:05] And I'm glad you asked that question. So yes, transparency is one thing. But you know, you have to understand that the sales reps, the vendors, all the companies, they all want the same thing, right? Just like we want the same thing. We want to be able to take care of our patients and develop a relationship where we can take care of these patients and make sure they're healthy for a long period of time. 

You know, the salespeople, the vendors, the companies, sometimes they get a bad rap because we always feel like they're just trying to, like, rip us off or something like that. And honestly, they're not. They're trying to help us. They want to have the same thing. They want to have that relationship. 

If you remember that. If you always remember that when you go into negotiation with them, then you know exactly how to negotiate. And what I mean by that is, let's say for example, like, a software that's, maybe a patient engagement software that most practices use, I'm going to use that as an example. 

Now the company, they want you to stay with them for as long as possible. That's how they grow their company. They rely on that monthly recurring revenue. Now, whether they get it every month or they get it in one lump sum, it doesn't matter as long as you stay on there, because that's how their value of the company grows.

And so if there's a software that you really like, like, I love this particular software, I'll never leave. I'll use it every year. Well, there's actually a way that you can save some money. By using the relationship factor. So a lot of times I go to those companies and say, look, I like using the software. I'm not going to go anywhere. I want to keep using it. What if I actually prepaid this year? Could I get a discount?

Most of the time – actually, not most of the time – almost all of the time, they will say yes. And the reason being, is because, again, remember, they want a relationship. They want you to stay with them.

So every month they have to make sure that you're happy so they get that monthly payment. But if you know you like them, you're not going to go anywhere, why not use that to your advantage? Just say, Hey, you know, I'm not going anywhere. How about I go ahead and prepay?

Ioannidou: [00:28:16] So a loyalty discount. 

Wright: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Vo: 00:28:18] Exactly.

Ioannidou: [00:28:19] I love it. I love it.

Vo: [00:28:21] And honestly, we kind of pay that already in the dental practice. You know what it's called? It's called dental insurance. Okay? We're super loyal to, well, I'm not going to mention any names, but certain insurances, right? And we pay that loyalty discount, sometimes it's a big discount, to keep those patients in there.

So really, you're just doing the same thing there. And a lot of times, you could probably get, like, let's say, you know, I mean, it's not uncommon for them to knock off, give you two months free. Well, imagine what you can do with the two months free, right? Maybe that's something to go towards what really matters here, which is going towards your team. Maybe you can put that money aside and do something really nice for them during the holidays, right? A Christmas dinner, a Thank You dinner at the end of the year or something like that.

So all those things, what I always preach is, Yeah, you can save money, but remember spending it on what really matters. So what really matters in your practice, is your team. What really matters at the end of the day is yourself, right? Maybe your family as well, but yourself. Because if you're not okay, then the practice is not going to be okay. So maybe some of the same as you take, maybe you just take an extended time off during the holidays, right? Maybe give some PTO to your team so that they can recharge as well. So those are the things that when we talk about Nifty Thrifty, it's not about being cheap, using the money on the things that really matter. What matters is you and your team.

Wright: [00:29:46] So good.

Ioannidou: [00:29:47] We will be right back.

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Ioannidou: [00:30:47] Welcome back to Dental Sound Bites. We are having a conversation about negotiating tips and strategies for dentists with Dr. Glenn Vo.

Wright: [00:30:55] All right, we've talked and learned so far. I kind of want to do a little quick recap, but I do have a question for you. We've talked about working smart – these are some of the notes that I've taken only for myself – to working smart, value performance, and work smart. Did you catch that, Dr. Effie?

Ioannidou: [00:31:12] I did.

Wright: [00:31:13] Yes, ma'am.

Ioannidou: [00:31:14] I love it.

Wright: [00:31:16] Working smart, knowing your value. But something that I do want to go back to was a question that Dr. Effie posed a little bit earlier, was about maybe for the dentist that's coming in looking for benefits. The way that I would love for you to try and marry those two for us is from the performance and knowing the value perspective. So maybe you can speak to the person who is just coming in and they are trying to negotiate or have a conversation about their value from a salary and the benefits perspective.

And then something that I love that you said, Dr. Effie, was reassessing often your performance. So that's that number, the productivity, and it kind of goes back to your initial point, Glenn, about collections and production and things like that. So maybe you can talk about those two perspectives for the new person. And then the person who's been in the practice. Who wants to have that conversation about an increase?

Vo: [00:32:11] Yeah, no, absolutely. Absolutely. So, we're going to go back to something that we discussed earlier. That is making sure that you have the right opportunity and making sure there's upside for yourself.

Upside being like, okay, let's say that a practice refers a lot of endo or surgery, and you're really proficient in that. And so when you look at those opportunities, like that's an office I can go into and I can do really well.

Wright: [00:32:36] Okay.

Vo: [00:32:36] So that actually is level one. You should look for those opportunities first. Now you should have multiple opportunities because now that's going to give you a chance to choose from the other ones. Okay. So let's say you found three offices that You feel like your skill set can do well. And so the biggest question being, can I make money in that practice is answered. That's probably the most important. That, and also if you have, if you vibe with the culture and the practice owner, that's the first one.

So you had to get through part one, kind of like when you're dating someone, you got to like someone first. Okay. Done. Now you gotta meet their family, right? You gotta get through that, right? So, so the next part would be the benefits. Now, you have to ask yourself, if you say yes to something, you might say no to something else, right?

Like, now you might run into those unicorn practices where they give you everything. Hey, we got PTO, we got health insurance, we got CE credits, right? We got all these things, okay? If you find those unicorns, that's an easy, that's an easy, easy answer. But not every practice is going to have everything that you want.

Okay. So then that's the level two and you have to ask yourself, well, is this important? Maybe your spouse, maybe you get health insurance from your spouse, right? So maybe now you could come back and say, Hey, I noticed that you guys do a stipend or maybe you do an allowance for health insurance. I actually got that. Can we shift that to something that is, that's more important to me like PTO? Right? Or let's shift that to something important to me about CE, right? Now also, that's also going to be something that you're going to be thinking about when you actually negotiate. Now, first rule of negotiation, if you don't ask, the answer is always no.

So everyone listen to this. If you don't ask, the answer is always no. So when you go into this and you say, PTO is really important to me. I've been there before where, you know, I was sick and I was living paycheck by check. This is really important to me. Is this something that you can put in there? Right?

So again, put a hierarchy, like what Doc just said earlier. A hierarchy of needs. Right? If PTO is at the top of the list, And you ask that question and they say No, then maybe this particular opportunity, maybe it goes to like second tier or whatever. So have that hierarchy needs and then ask that question.

But also just be open to, if you are, if you are someone that can bring value to the practice, that's another thing too. If you are someone that can bring value to practice, the practice owner is gonna want to work and try to find a way to hire you, essentially. So it goes back to the very first thing, make sure you bring some value to the practice. Where's that value? It could be you willing to work more or you bring a certain skill set.

Then, then that shifts to the practice owner and they're like, I really want this person. I'll bend over backwards for them. That, from that perspective, is easier to negotiate. So hopefully that answers some of your questions there. Yeah. But every practice is different, you know.

Wright: [00:35:43] I was just going to say, while you're actually on that point, this is for you and Dr. Effie. Like, I want to hear both of your perspectives on this, about building confidence for negotiating. Because having that hierarchy, you know, and going in and having that conversation, it can be really intimidating, especially for like newer grads. So what are y'all, what are y'all thoughts about that?

Ioannidou: [00:36:04] My reaction to this is confidence comes with preparation. You need to be well prepared. You need to understand exactly. You need to know the practice. You need to know the institution you're going to. You need to know, as we said before, you have to be super well prepared and then you need to know yourself, right?

Wright: [00:36:20] Yeah.

Ioannidou: [00:36:20] And you have to be honest, true to yourself.

Wright: [00:36:22] That's the part.

Ioannidou: [00:36:23] Many times I see people coming, you know, in interviewing and they are like, I want to be appropriate in my, that’s the adjective that I'm going to use, but they are a little bit unrealistic and pompous, right? You don't need to exaggerate your skills, and you don't need to be super humble.

I many times say to the students, if you don't promote yourself, nobody will promote you. You should be the first promoter, but in a very appropriate way and realistic way. So be true to yourself. The biggest mistake that I made in my career, this is publicly known, that was the fact that I never negotiated my first salary at the University of Connecticut.

I was hired as a junior faculty and they gave me an offer and I said, Oh my God, I have a job. You know, so, and that was it, no negotiation. And they were like, Oh, who is this dummy? Come in, please. You're hired. So never repeated again. And I learned a lot from that experience. And I mean, it's important to practice, right?

You need to go in front of your mirror and practice, practice the way you present yourself. Show your confidence through your eyes, through your body position. This is what I think. But Glenn, I think you're in practice. You know more. I'm giving the academic perspective.

Vo: [00:37:34] Well, I'll tell you what, I think what you're saying is spot on.

And I'm just going to really just piggyback on what you said. I want everyone to think about relationships. I mean, really, that's what it is, right? When you can bring something to the table, your prospects are a little bit better. Let's be honest, right? Right?

So, you know, you bring something, like you have a good career, you're a good person, you have a nice family, everything. Prospects look a lot better for you.

The same thing when it comes to finding the right job. If you can bring something to the table, and again, I just listed it like a certain skill set, and maybe you're not there yet, maybe you're not there yet, but maybe this particular situation will get you there.

Actually, I will reverse this around and I'll give you a tip for all the owners. When I negotiate with a new dentist. And I see they're lacking somewhere, that is actually somewhere that I negotiate. Let's say, for example, they're, you know, they, they don't have as much surgical skill. I'll say, you know what, you know what, Dr. Wright, I notice you haven't done a lot of, like, surgery in your background, also at your school and whatnot, but if you come to my practice, we're going to be doing a lot of surgery.

You know, in fact, this is going to be almost like a paid CE program for you. You're going to learn how to do implants, you're going to learn how to do wisdom teeth. You're going to get paid for it too. And I'm going to make sure I'm right there with you mentoring. I use that all the time to negotiate with new grads, all right, because I know what I can bring.

Now, from new grad perspective, if you bring something that they need, then that puts you in a better spot when it comes to the negotiation. So again, it goes back to understanding yourself, like being honest, like Dr. Effie said, you gotta be honest, right? If you got the skills, hey, go for it. If you don't and you're trying to talk yourself through it, you're gonna get exposed so fast.

Okay, so again, understand, understand what you bring there and be confident about it and let them know. Let them know what you're bringing to the table.

Ioannidou: [00:39:30] You said something at the very beginning when you introduced yourself and you kind of built up the rationale of why you came up with this idea, the startup idea of the Nifty Thrifty.  And you said you come from an immigrant family. So I want to, I’m going to circle back because I think this is really important.

And, you know, there are so many studies that show that male dentists make more than 20% more than female dentists, right? In practice. And also white male dentists in particular make this. So when we talk about dentists that are from a multilingual background, they make less. Dentists that are married to spouses who are not dentists make more. Okay. So these are well published, you know, ADA has done a paper, other colleagues have done. So when you have these numbers, when you have the statistics, right? In your mind as a practice owner, I wonder, do people want to do the right thing?

Do they think only business or they think, okay, I want to be fair to my candidates. I'm not going to entertain any of this inequity principles. I will try to be, you know, on the right side of history. And the same goes to the associates. Do associates that go into interviews, I wonder, I don't have this answer, but I wonder, do they know that those data are out there and they have to, you know, negotiate a little bit harder if they are in the minority groups?

Just, just an idea.

Vo: [00:41:01] Yeah. I'll tell you what, where we are right now when it comes to discrepancy in pay and also opportunities, we've made a lot of progress. I remember, gosh, when I was, you know, in high school and I'm just thinking about my daughters just joining high school, how things are different now, like for the better.

I was just like, Oh my gosh, if you went to high school and I went to high school, oh my gosh, you know, like, I don't know. Even though we've made some strides, right? There's so much more, just like we talked about, there's so much more that can be done. When we talk about school, learning about business, I think we all can agree, not just in our society, but in dental school itself, there's a lot more that can be done when it comes to inclusion as well.

But what I would say is this, when you get out into the business world, the great thing about this country, right, is that a guy like me, with parents who only had a high school education, could pump out, like, three doctors in a family, right? Like, only in a country like this, right? And what I would tell people is that there is one language that is universal. That is the language of money, okay? It's universal.

Ioannidou: [00:42:06] I thought you would say the language of education. But yes, money too.

Vo: [00:42:11] And money, right? Like, whether you're, whether you're in Asia, Europe, whatever, people understand money. They understand the value of money. All those things don't change. And so what I would say when it comes to negotiation, doesn't matter who the practice owner is, what their background is, if you can demonstrate to them by bringing me on your production and collection is going to go here, then they will understand and they won't care if you are from Mars. Okay. If you can bring this value to the practice and bring that to them and help, you know, you know, increase the bottom line, it doesn't matter who you are. It doesn't matter if you're from Mars. 

That's the thing that you have to understand you have to sometimes just eliminate all the emotion out of that and just say, when you're negotiating, let's say, for example, you come on and you take a salary that maybe is not as much as you want. What I would say is if you guys ever do that, negotiate and say, I'd like to have this conversation again in 90 days. I'm going to show you what I can do. In 90 days, you see the numbers, nothing left to be said. Right? Nothing left to be said. So understand that, that you can, you can get past certain biases.

I'm just talking about the universal language. Of course, universal language is love, but we'll talk about money too. And just show that the hardcore facts because money, numbers, they do not lie, right? You can't, you can't hide the numbers. And if you can demonstrate there, then if they are negotiating and treating you in good faith, they'll say, Okay, it makes sense. I'm gonna up your pay.

If they don't, then just thank your lucky stars that you expose them at that point and then you can leave. So a lot of times if you're, sometimes people feel like, Oh, I got taken advantage of, or something happened. The thing is, is when bad things happen to you, you are blessed with one thing. That's clarity. Right? And that is priceless. You understand the true nature of the other person. That is priceless. And then you can cut your losses and get out of there.

Ioannidou: [00:44:14] That's a great tip. This is really a great conversation. I really loved it. This is wisdom. Yeah. That's wisdom.

Wright: [00:44:20] That was so good.

Announcer: [00:44:23] On the next Dental Sound Bites.

Ioannidou: [00:44:25] Join us as we talk about the important connection between oral health and overall health.

Wright: [00:44:29] Discover how oral health, patient care, and innovation come together to drive meaningful change.

Thank you so much for joining us today, Dr. Vo. As we already said, that was such a great conversation. I'm sure we could just continue on and on and on. But, I know our listeners really, really are going to glean so much from you. So thank you.

Vo: [00:44:53] Thank you.

Ioannidou: [00:44:53] Thank you so much. This was amazing. We always learn, right?

Wright: Yeah, I know. I'm over here taking notes. 

Ioannidou: Yeah. We, we love it. It was really a pleasure meeting you and I mean, there are so many strategies and so many tips in so many different levels of the practitioner's life. So I think that this was very useful. Thank you so much.

Vo: [00:45:14] Thank you.

Wright: [00:45:14] So Dr. Vo, can you please tell our listeners how they can find you, how they can find out more about you, where they can follow you online.

Vo: [00:45:22] Yeah, I'm very easy to find. If you're on Facebook, join the Nifty Thrifty Dentist Facebook group. Again, there's 57,000 of us in there. Love to have you on there. On YouTube, it's Nifty Thrifty Dentist YouTube channel. Uh, I have different podcasts and also different videos on there as well. And of course we have their site, niftythriftydentist.com. 

So would love to have you guys. I just engage and reach out to me anytime. Glenn Vo on Facebook, send me a message. People message me all the time. That's how I give back to the community by just, uh, whatever you need, just reach out to me. If I can't give you the answer, I will find someone that can.

Ioannidou: [00:45:59] Thank you so much. Thank you. This was great.

Vo: [00:46:02] Thank you.

Ioannidou: [00:46:03] And if you guys like this episode, share it with a friend, then be sure to subscribe to this podcast wherever you are listening so you can get the latest episodes.

Wright: [00:46:14] Yeah, you can also rate it, you can write a review, and don't forget you can always follow us on social media.

Ioannidou: [00:46:20] And don't forget again the conversation continues on the ADA member app and on our YouTube channel. Catch the bonus content and everything you didn't hear on the show. Until next time.

Wright: [00:46:31] Outtie!

Announcer: [00:46:35] Thank you for joining us. Dental Sound Bites is an American Dental Association podcast. You can also find this show, resources, and more on the ADA member app and online at ada.org/podcast.