S2 EP6: Career pathways, part 2

Transcript

Wright: [00:00:00] If you're navigating the dental practice market, deciding whether you want to join one or run one, this is the episode you've been waiting for.

Hello. Hello everyone. I'm Dr. Arnell Wright.

Ioannidou: [00:00:11] And I'm Dr. Effie Ioannidou. And this is Dental Sound Bites. Today we are exploring more dental career paths. Let's get started 

Announcer: [ [00:00:22] From the American Dental Association. This is Dental Sound Bites. Created for dentists by dentists. Ready? Let's dive right into real talk on dentistry's, daily wins and sticky situations.

Ioannidou: [00:00:38] Last episode, we asked all dentists listening, how did you decide which direction you wanted your dental career to take? In this episode, we will explore more of many possible dental career paths. We are hearing from dentists who have gone to small practice route, associateship, have joined dental support organization.

Wright: [00:00:58] That's me.

Ioannidou: [00:00:59] Yes, you did.

Wright: [00:01:02] And we're also hearing from a dentist who recently bought a practice. And his path to ownership. So I wanna welcome our guest today, Dr. Simon Wu.

Ioannidou: [00:01:11] Welcome, welcome.

Wu: [00:01:13] Thank you for having me. Super excited to be here.

Wright: [00:01:15] Well, we are so excited to have you. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Tell us where you practice, give us some information.

Wu: [00:01:22] I grew up in Southern California around Orange County. Got my DDS at Dugoni Pacific Class of 2017, represent. I am currently practicing in Riverside, California and I actually just bought my practice two months ago, so it's been really exciting, stressful, a mixed bag of different things because I'm working on rebranding and website creation. The name and slogan of the clinic is Smile Pathway Dental, Blueprint to a Confident You.

Ioannidou: [00:01:48] Wow! Fancy.

Wright: [00:01:50] Oh, I love that. Okay.

Ioannidou: [00:01:52] So tell us a little bit about your career path and how did you decide to take this direction of practicing?

Wu: [00:01:59] People ask you like, what's your five year plan in college or even dental school?

So I've always kind of have an idea of what I want to do. I've always wanted to start off working in a big DSO so that I can really gain that confidence, that time management skill. Being able to see a lot of patients and get that exposure, which is interesting cuz you know, there used to be this stigmatism that a DSO maybe is not the right choice. And I think that's shifting a little bit for newer generation dentists like myself.

Wright: [00:02:28] Oh, a lot of it.

Wu: [00:02:29] Yeah, yeah. Shifting a lot. So my first job was in a very large DSO. It was out in the Midwest and I was actually seeing 17 patients my first day, 20 my day two and 23 by day three, and I just wanna go home and, and just lay down be a, a potato.

And I did that for three years. Nice. Then move on to a smaller DSO slash associateship. That very much felt like a small group practice. It's much a. Smaller scale and they fully supported me for my CE cause that's what I came in with, the intention. So I went to a Maxi implant course, I took a lot of course on Invisalign and they sponsor everything.

And I start to do the other procedures that I was interested in, in the. Slower pace environment. You know, very much family style dentistry. I did that for two years and there's very amazing DSO opportunities out there. If I were to be associate forever, I would stay there, but for me, I've always wanted to be an owner and that's what happened. So excited to be where I am now.

Wright: [00:03:31] I think that's really good for the listeners to hear that, if you set a goal.

Ioannidou: [00:03:35] Yeah.

Wright: [00:03:36] And it's. Seems, I think that we'll discover from, from our conversation that if you're intentional about your goal, right, surrounding yourself with the right people, you can achieve your goal, right?

Wu: [00:03:46] Yes, a hundred percent.

Wright: [00:03:47] There, there you go.

Wu: [00:03:47] So I, I think it's definitely helpful to have a framework. Yeah. You don't need to have the details of like, this needs to happen, but if you have a framework, I think that definitely helps. 

Ioannidou: [00:03:58] First of all, this is really, Wise speaking, and I'm thinking when you graduated from dental school,  were you immediately in a position to think about five years, think about the tools that you need to achieve your goals. How did you navigate that immediate shock of graduation?

Wu: [00:04:18] The answer will be yes. I immediately have the idea, even in dental school because, I felt UOP really instilled a very, very good education in me. So I didn't feel like I needed a GPR or AGD. I know there's obviously a lot of benefits to those, especially for specialty or getting more experience in one specific area, maybe. I was ready, just start seeing patients. Uh, I've always focused on the hand scale rather than didactic in dental school.

It's really cool going from seeing three, four patients a day to seeing 10, 20, 25. I've always been very goal driven. I know I don't wanna be an associate forever. And I guess a part of why I got into dentistry is I know that dentistry provides you an avenue to be a business owner.

Wright: [00:05:05] So, so you've always wanted to be a business owner?

Wu: [00:05:08] Yeah, a part of me is definitely interested in the business and management side of things. That's definitely one of the influence.

Wright: [00:05:14] Mm-hmm. Can you expound a little bit more about just being on the path you've experienced both as being the associate and practice ownership now? Is there anything deeper that helped you make the career switch?

Wu: [00:05:25] Yeah, definitely. At the end of the day, as a business owner, you make the decisions from top down, right? You dictate day-to-day operation, the kind of culture you wanna foster, which there's a big emphasis on now, the title material you use, because I didn't think of this before, but I feel like dentists is a very picky breed. Like there's specific things you like and you like it that way. And so you know, you practice longer, you get more picky, and you just wanna make those small, detailed decisions.

Wright: [00:05:56] Yeah.

Ioannidou: [00:05:57] I'm impressed by the fact that you felt prepared, which is great. And so there are certain requirements of training, I guess. How do you start, and this question will definitely benefit dental students, or recent graduates. So how do you do this?

Wu: [00:06:10] Yes. It's definitely very daunting and exciting at the same time. Once you know, you wanna make that step and sometimes you can start looking even if you're not fully committed, because it's not like, just because you're looking doesn't mean you have to do it. So, you know, I wanna put that out there. You know, I'm really fortunate to have a lot of friends and colleagues who are also a practice owner. So I would say your connections are super important, asking your friends and professors that have done that so that they can give you the resources they have.

Podcasts such as this one is super helpful. Dental podcast, that really gave me a lot of information on this is how you look at the P&L. This is things you wanna look for in an office and making sure that it's healthy, you know, different metrics. You can talk to your local brokers. Sometimes banks will know and work with different dentists. And I actually found mine through, Google search, so I was just Google searching.

Wright: [00:07:05] University of Google. Oh my gosh. Talk about it.

Ioannidou: [00:07:08] The best.

Wu: [00:07:09] Yeah, I just will search like, dental practice or dental broker near me, and I was actually working in the Midwest, Wisconsin at the time. So I wasn't sure if I wanted to move back to California. I was looking at both locations and that's where I found the, ADA Practice Transition department.

Wright: [00:07:27] ADAPT is sometimes it's referred to as ADAPT just for our listeners out there. Nice.

Wu: [00:07:32] Yes. And that was really cool. Mm-hmm. Because when I first got introduced to it, there's a lot of filters and details you can add in, such as, you know, zip code, you're interested in finding a practice.

You can search by radius, you can search by different parameters such as what kind of insurance this office takes and how many operatories. You know, just the fine details. Mm-hmm. And so, I actually enter in like multiple zip code locations. I'm, I'm willing to entertain within like, I dunno, 25 mile radius and ADAPT get to work.

And so I actually did it I think November of last year. And all the offices that basically adapt connected me as a buyer with other seller who is using the same service. So, sellers and buyer both go to this program and put in their information and they just match you. And so I had multiple meetings with potential sellers and I tour their office and had a conversation and they were all really cool. So that's how I ultimately found my practice in Riverside, California.

Ioannidou: [00:08:36] So the ADA is a matchmaker? Yes. Yes. Kudos to the ADA, right?

Wu: [00:08:41] Yes.

Ioannidou: [00:08:41] That's amazing. This is an amazing resource, and I'm not sure if many people know. I mean, this is super informative and the way that you present it, it really helps you make an informed decision comparing two different geographic locations simultaneously. I mean, this is amazing.

Wu: [00:08:57] Yeah. I have my parameters that I wanna search for and my deal breakers and using ADAPT allow me to narrow that down and sift through all the information a lot easier.

Ioannidou: [00:09:08] That's really great. So if like Dr. Wu, you're considering buying a practice, we will include a link in the show notes to our ADA Practice Transition tools that will help you buy or sell a practice, find a job, or even hire an associate.

Wright: [00:09:24] Nice, nice

Wu: [00:09:24] Nice.

Wright: [00:09:25] Is there anything that you miss from being an associate in the DSO to now being an owner? Anything that you can share? Like what's the biggest change? I'm sure there's. Several things that you can discuss with our listeners.

Wu: [00:09:38] Oh, yeah. I definitely miss going home on time there. Let's start with that. It's, it's been a little crazy, the first two, three months of ownership, and that's obviously completely normal with any business. I would say the biggest change is definitely your mentality in the way you approach the practice and your patience because you know, at the end of the day, like everything falls on you.

As opposed to, you know, being an associateship. You know, there's always kind of a safety net. There's, there's, there's a whole system. There's the upper management, there's, you know, clinical director.  That's a big difference. 

The other one is you have to wear so many more hats. You know, we're always used to being the clinician in the office. Maybe the leader, the manager, duty as an owner. Now you have to put on even more hats. You know, I'm, I'm kind of the handyman office. You know, I'm trying to mount my team.

Wright: [00:10:27] You gotta keep those expenses down. Listen.

Wu: [00:10:29] I know, I know. It's crazy. You know, I'm basically the IT in the office, right? I'm spearheading all the technology upgrades with the scanner and internal cameras. Now you have to have a more businessman mentality as well. So a lot more hats to wear.

Wright: [00:10:46] Yeah, and you know what's so strange? I don't know if you're like this Dr. Wu, but I kind of enjoy like dibbling and dabbling in all of that. Like I feel like I am such an operator, not only clinically, you know what I mean? Like right in, in dental school, we're just taught to be so technical and you know, to self-assess when we've, you know, when we're prepping for the crown or, you know, the class two or whatever.

But I kind of love like getting into the weeds and talking about numbers and saying, all right, so we're, we're on track to do this. Or, you know, what's our patient conversion rate? I kind of love all of that stuff. So I used to work in retail and I think this is where I get it from. So like retail and customer service, those are like some of my earlier jobs and I just love the marriage of those two and like how they fit in the dental practice. Like it. Talk about that a little bit.

Wu: [00:11:35] That's definitely a big reason why becoming an owner is, is you have those fine control on the small things you talk about, the numbers, the goals you wanna achieve, and you can work towards that.

And I can see if they say the amount of work you put in and you get back, it's equal. And so it is extremely rewarding. Gosh, yeah. I've been staying overtime till seven, 8:00 PM every day. Yeah. You know, that's starting to decrease a little bit till like seven. But again, it's, it's, I've never done something that I feel was so rewarding in the past, so it's, it's been great.

Announcer: [ [00:12:12] With so many career options in dentistry, how do you find your fit? Get your top recommendations with the new career path quiz on the ADA member app. Find it by searching ADA member app in your app store.

Announcer: [ [00:12:26] Join us at Smile Con 2023, October 5th through seventh in Orlando. Catch Dental Sound Bites live. Learn new skills and build lifelong connections. register at smilecon.org and don't wait. Prices increase on June 23rd.

Ioannidou: [00:12:43] It's fantastic and it's what we call independence, right? You are your own boss. You have complete independence, you make your decisions, the financial decisions, the practice management decisions.

Yes, but perhaps this is not for everybody. We have to admit this for sure. We have a lot of listeners that will be like, oh my God, am I missing something? Should I be doing this?

Wright: [00:13:02] Like FOMO or something, right?

Ioannidou: [00:13:03] Exactly. Yes. Yeah. Exactly.

Wu: [00:13:06] I definitely agree. That's not to say that one's right versus the other, but I, I personally don't think everyone is meant to be a business owner. Because, you know, I mentioned there's so many hats you have to wear, so you do get pulled in many directions. Some people, they only enjoy that, that patient interaction and that hands, hands-on clinical stuff and they don't want to deal with the numbers. We're managing a team. And at the end of the day, if, if you're not going home feeling like you had a good day of work and you're stressed out all the time, then that's not good for your mental health either.

Wright: [00:13:38] Yeah. I'm so glad you brought that up, cuz I was gonna say like, it's, it's so important for us to pour into our practices, but then you also have to try and refill your own cup. So. Yep. For all of our listeners out there, we are also big on wellness and we want, you know, we want everybody to have like a very balanced life as best as you can.

There's gonna be some times where you have to do it a little bit more. And I'm so glad to know that, you know, you're able to balance it and see when you should be going home a little bit earlier. Right? And, and some of that is, and you may be able to speak to this, some of that may be, delegating a little bit more duties.

Now that you have built that culture and you've set the expectation, now you can kind of pass along this set of responsibilities or duties to someone on your team, to kind of help lighten that load for you.

Wu: [00:14:22] Oh, definitely. Yeah. I'm, I'm all about delegation. Whenever, whenever that's possible, obviously you need to build that trust, right? For sure. But yes, I mean, I,  I don't do my own billing and when insurance, I absolutely hate it. You know, I think of it like you can't be good at every procedure, right? We all have those smaller root canals that we hate. I can't do every, you know, PO procedure and you refer them out, right?

Delegation is kinda the same, you know, delegate things you hate to your team. You know, your office manager,

Ioannidou: [00:14:51] I like this.

Wu: [00:14:51]Need assistant detail

Wright: [00:14:55] Or, or better yet, like you can delegate the things that like, okay. So like, remove yourself from the things that someone may be able to do better than you, so that you can focus on the things that you do better.

Wright: [00:15:06] There you go.

Wu: [00:15:07] Yes. There you go.

Ioannidou: [00:15:07]  A positive spin.

Wright: [00:15:09] Right. That's, we gotta package it all up for everybody.

Ioannidou: [00:15:13] It's important.

Wu: [00:15:14] I mean, they can do a better job, more efficient, and enjoy it while they're doing it.

Wright: [00:15:19] Yeah. There you go. Yep. So everybody who's listening, help your doctors out and doctors help your teams out.

Right. At this time, we're gonna take a little transition and we wanna hear from another dentist about their career path, and then we can do a little bit of chit chat about it. So here's Dr. Riley Shaff on what it's like to be in a small group practice.

Schaff: [00:15:39] My name is Riley Shaff and I'm a general dentist in Ann Arbor, Michigan. I love dentistry because there's the possibility for so much variety. I'm a member of a small group practice, and I think small group practice really gives you the best of both worlds. You get the benefits of owning your own practice. Those that are financial, the control of your lifestyle. I get to still be my own boss, get to make decisions in my practice exactly the way I want to, but my colleagues bring a different perspective to treatment planning and to business ownership, and we get to split some of those responsibilities based on our skill sets. To be able to split those responsibilities amongst people that you trust is really a wonderful thing. when I go on vacation. I don't have to worry about my office. I know my two partners have things held down. That's really nice to not have to worry when I'm away. I like my partners immensely.

Small group practice is really a great option cuz it gives you some more flexibility, but still has a lot of the benefits that we see with private practice ownership.

Wright: [00:16:37] So many things we can take from that. I feel like the variety piece, Dr. Wu, you touched on, you kind of get to do a little bit of everything, but Dr. Shaff spoke about a little bit being in a small group practice. When I took the quiz and the ADA Member App, it said that I'm more likely to be in a small group practice because I'm so collaborative. Yeah, so, so what are your thoughts?

Wu: [00:16:57] I took the quiz too, and it says, “Solo”, which, you know, that was kind of interesting. I mentioned the five year plan. So my next five year plan is to maybe become a small group practice. Obviously I'm just on my first one. It's a lot already, but definitely amazing points because right now the retiring doctor that I purchased the practice from, he's staying on for three months.

Wright: [00:17:18] Awesome.

Wu: [00:17:18] And we had such a great working relationship that he's actually staying past that. And so for example, for, for the, yeah. And you don't, you know, I think it's really important to have that good relationship with the seller doctor. Mm-hmm. It really helps with the goodwill. It helps with the transition, but going back to the point. I'm going on vacation for further July and he's staying to help me out.

Wright: [00:17:41] Split those responsibilities there. You, you go.

Wu: [00:17:43] Right. So, you know, it's hard being a solo practitioner. If you think about over 5, 10, 20 years, you never get to take a real long vacation. So as a kid, I remember going to my dentist's office and I was like, you know, I can never practice solo, I would go crazy. because you just don’t have somebody to bounce ideas with, go over treatment plan, have that collaboration.

Ioannidou: [00:18:06] ArNelle, you chose a dental support organization for your career. Tell us a little bit about your decision and what's your typical day.

Wright: [00:18:14] For me, I was actually graduating, and I was pregnant with my first child, and so I always thought when I said I wanted to be a dentist that when I finish school, I'm gonna go into like a private practice. Right?

But. Once I found out that I was pregnant, I needed to make a decision and that it, it was right readily available for me. Recruiters were contacting me and I'm sure Dr. Wu, you had this experience like  from lunch and learns. You know, they email you, they say, Hey, we have this opportunity with this sign on bonus or with this transition bonus.

And for me, I was coming back close to home. Orlando is near where my family is about an hour, hour and 15, 20 minutes away. And so I wanted to be closer to my family and at that point I needed to be closer to my family because I needed some support. and so I started with the DSO. I stayed with them for four years before I transitioned into another one, which is where I currently am.

And for me, it's just been about not having like the overhead and, and surprisingly, now that I'm further along in my career, I do want to explore ownership. One of the things that has kind of made me pause before going into ownership is making sure that I can finish what I start. So making sure that I know certain things.

And so, so I, I may be in my own way. So for everybody out there listening, Don't DM me, but maybe you can DM me some people to contact, but I just kind of like to know, like, all of the ins and outs and so I can sometimes be a little bit slow full, just because I, I should say deliberate actually. But a typical day for me, is less, I don't see a million patients a day.

I'm more of a Chatty Cathy. I wanna get to know my patients. I wanna know if they're a good patient for me to say yes to, or say no to. So, and in fact, I'm training my team to kind of be an extension of me, like when I'm not in the room, like what are the things that I'm going to ask? Like how am I gonna manage those expectations? So I'm seeing patients, 

Ioannidou: [00:20:11] See you delegate.

Wright: [00:20:12] Yeah, I do listen, I, I, I delegate. Like this is something that I've gotten really, really good at is like delegating because I know that if I do want to like be more, clinically confident, somebody else has to be having certain conversations, right? Or answering certain questions, providing post-op instructions.

And I read the room very well. So there are certain patients who,  they only wanna hear it from me. And so when I see them on the schedule, I'm just like, you guys just come and get me. Gimme a sticky note. Let me know when they're there so that I can come and. Give this person my attention so that they don't feel like they're just being shuffled aside.

Because when people come to like, corporate is what, you know, even the patients refer to it as, they kind of just feel like they're just a number. And so I've been trying to be really diligent about, like, I don't want my patients to feel like they're a number in just like a chain and like we're just pushing them through.

Wu: [00:21:02] That's really nice. Yeah, that's definitely a feedback from patient, but I know there's DSO out there who you know are in your situation that really caters to the patient and make them feel like a private. Small group practice. Yeah. And there are DSO out there that, you know, it may maybe didn't do as good of a job with that.

Wright: [00:21:20] Yeah. So it's that autonomy piece. I think you might have mentioned it, Dr. Wu like, okay, as a private practice owner, you kind of get to do whatever you want. Luckily for me, I haven't had the experience where there's been someone like breathing down my neck saying You need to prep this crown. Like that does not work.

Wu: [00:21:41] It'd be crazy cuz I actually have a lot of friends who has that exact experience where there's somebody standing there saying, do this prep in 45 minutes. I, I, I have friends who had that experience. I never personally have, you know, I, I just, I would not, that would not work with my personality as well.

So, you know, there are a lot of DSO out there who guarantee you full autonomy and, and my DSO experience provided that, which is cool.

Wright: [00:22:07] And you know what, I think that this is what's happening in the transition, cuz we heard from season one, when we spoke to Marko [Vujicic], the HPI data that the landscape is changing.

So I think that the DSO’s or, or the leadership within these organizations, they're starting to get the picture that the doctors need. The autonomy. The doctors need to be able. To be at the helm, like driving the ship. To be honest with you, I think they're starting to figure it out.

Ioannidou: [00:22:31] You know, there are good and bad in every field, in every mode of practice, right?

Yes. In medicine, in dentistry, for sure. But I think what you bring up is important. The fact that you, you get your autonomy and you can make your own decision, but, but also to be within the philosophy of the practice. Because you cannot divert completely and then expect to be part of the team.

Right. I'm sure it's a very thin balance, but if the listeners are wise as you both are, then I'm sure that they can navigate either a DSO or a small group practice, either or.

Wu: [00:23:09] And Dr. Wright you mentioned about being deliberate and I think that's the right approach. I mean, it's a big decision. So, you know, I wanted to reiterate that just because you're looking doesn't mean you have to commit. Right? And so, to not put so much pressure on yourself, because I started by just looking on Google and look at where I am, so it's not like just because you visit an office, you have to buy it.

And podcasts like this was so instrumental for me when I was looking and learning because  I didn't know anything about this business side, and when I started listening to podcasts, that got me learning more and that kind of fueled the motivation and saying, Hey, I think I can do this.

Wright: [00:23:49] I love that.

Announcer: [ [00:23:50] On the next Dental Sound Bites,

Wright: [00:23:53] Some big life changes are planned and others come out of nowhere.

Next, we'll be talking about what you can do today to prepare your career and your life for these moments. Whether you're planning for a significant life event or simply wanting to be prepared for whatever comes your way, this episode has the insights and advice you need to take control of your future.

Wright: This was such a great episode and like a great discussion.

Ioannidou: [00:24:20] Great episode.

Wright: [00:24:20] I really enjoyed hearing from you and just learning a little bit more about your journey.

Wu: [00:24:24] Oh, thank you.

Ioannidou: [00:24:25] Yeah, thank you so much. It was great.

Wu: [00:24:28] Appreciate you both. No, thank you for having me. This is super, super cool to be on here. I definitely encourage people to look into ADAPT if they're interested in looking at acquiring a practice of their own.

Wright: [00:24:39] Before you go, can you just tell everybody who's listening where they can find you, and Yeah. Just any final words that you have for our listeners?

Wu: [00:24:46] Yeah, so the practice name again is Smile Pathway Dental. We are in Riverside, California and the email is actually smilepathwaydental@gmail.com.

People can email me if they have any questions, if they wanna connect about the podcast. I listen to, you know, how to start jump starting that process and, and learning, the PNLs and things like that.

Wright: [00:25:07] Awesome. Awesome.

Ioannidou: [00:25:09] This is great. You should start your own podcast.

Wright: [00:25:13] Hey. He just bought a practice.,

Wu: [00:25:14] This is my first podcast. Listen. Yeah, yeah. Got a lot of things to do,

Wright: [00:25:17] right?

Ioannidou: [00:25:17] Yeah, I can, I can see him as someone that is doing his procedures and this next to him, there is a microphone, actually he's connected to microphone. Oh. And while doing podcasting too. There you go. 

Wu: [00:25:29] Maybe in the future we'll gimme a couple more months.

Wright: [00:25:31] Five year plan.

Wright: [00:25:32] You can add it to your five year plan. Yes. Well, thank you so much again, Dr. Wu, for being on our podcast. I'm sure our listeners will be in touch and I'm sure they enjoyed hearing your story. 

Wu: [00:25:43] Thank you.

Ioannidou: [00:25:44] Thank you. Thank you. If you like this episode, go ahead and share it with a friend or colleague. Then subscribe to this podcast wherever you are listening so you can get the latest episode.

Wright: [00:25:54] You can also rate and write a review and follow us on social media.

Ioannidou: [00:25:58] And don't forget the conversation continues on the ADA member app. This episode's bonus content, what you didn't hear on the show.

Announcer: [00:26:08] Thank you for joining us. Dental Soundbites is an American Dental Association podcast. You can also find this show resources and more on the ADA member app and online at ada.org/podcast.